I’m sure you are not the first one talking about the timing issue in Bachata. The following is from a question I got from Alon Goshen, a Bachata instructor from Israel about the timing issue in Bachata.
This is the conversation we had about it… good insights for everybody…
From Allon (28 March, 2012)
Hi Juan,
I’m writing this to you as one of the leading Bachata Instructors in the world, because here in Israel we have a small debate between the Bachata Instructors, that we were hoping that you might help settle (if there is something that most agree upon). We could really use your opinion.
This is about the Bachata count. Some of us teach 1,2,3,Hip and 1,2,3,Hip, and some teach 1,2,3,Hip and 5,6,7,Hip. Now, we all agree it’s easier to teach with 8 count, since all of the Bachata crowd also knows Salsa, and it’s easier for both Instructors and Students.
However, in Bachata, unlike Salsa, there are many moments that in some the guy will move to the left on the 1 count (with his left leg first), and many that the guy will move to the right on the 1 (with his right leg first). Take for example when the guy is standing behind the girl, who is standing with her back to the guy. Both will move to the same direction, which means that one of them will move the “wrong” leg first. Therefore, there is no leg difference between the 1 count and the 5 count, since both legs can move on both counts, depends on the dancing situation, and therefore there is no need to differ between the 2 pairs of 4 count.
I hope you understand what I’m talking about. If you instruct your students that 1 count means left leg for the men and right leg for the girls, and that the 5 count means right leg for the men and left leg for the girls, then above is an example that negates that. Same applies if as a leader, I decide to lead the girl forward on the first 4 count, and then to the left on the 2nd 4 count, making my next 4 count go to the right, and again switching legs…
So, what do you do? Do you tell your students that Bachata is on 4 count, but you teach it on 8 count for convenient? or that you believe it’s on 8 count, and if so, then how do you explain the two cases I described above?
We would really appreciate your help, as we don’t wanna teach people the wrong things…
Juan’s answer (28 March 2012)
Hey Alon,
This is a debate that I have usually at the Bachata competitions that I judge, when they want us to look for the “timing” of the dancers….
By default, Bachata is a 4/4 music. Meaning that when you count it, it will be 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4, etc.
For teaching purposes, we count ’till the 8th, as it is easier to say 1,2,3,4 to the right, 5,6,7,8 to the left
So, if you start dancing on the 1, you are on time. If you start dancing on the 5, you are on time as well!
This is a concept that true Bachata artists know about. Usually, Salsa dancers are used to the 8 counts, so for them, it is hard to understand the 4 count.
I can go on about it, but you get my point, and I’m sure I have answered your question
-Juan
PS. This is a great question that I always get asked. I’m going to put it on the Bachateros website so people can refer to it. Thanks, Alon! Keep on dancing!
From Allon
Thank you for your answer. Do you mind if I paste it on my Facebook wall for all to see?
From Juan
Yes, go for it
From Alon
Btw, about what you said that “if you start dancing on the 1, you are on time. If you start dancing on the 5, you are on time as well”. I think that I need to make my meaning clearer.
I always start on the 1, but the different is, that I can start it with my left leg or my right leg. If on a count of 1,2,3,tap 5,6,7,tap I do Right,Left,Right,tap and Left,Right,Left,tap, I do not call it “start dancing on the 5” but rather i call it “start dancing on the 1 with your right leg”, which is a bit different, if you understand what I mean.
From Juan
It is the same, explained differently
To make it simpler:
You are on time if you star dancing with your left foot or with your right foot on the one, as long as you keep the 4 beats timing (step, step, step, tap)
From Alon
Yep, thought so. Again, thank you very much, and I hope one day to see you in Israel. I hope one day we can bring you to Israel.
Alon then sent an email to various prominent Bachata instructors whom provided great insights as well. I would leave it up to Alon to share those insights J
As Juan said, I’ve sent it to several Bachata Instuctors around the world, and these are the answers I got:
Rodney Rodchata Aquino:
I am a musician myself (guitar and drums). This is kinda tough to explain online without me writing on a blackboard, drawing a music diagram, and demonstrating, but let me try…
the beat of bachata is usually 4/4, unless it’s bolero influenced on which it is 3/4.
Try looking at a music diagram whenever you can.
The basic of music rhythm is, and in this case, “filling a whole measure” is 4…so when you count the whole measure, it is 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4….
You are basically counting 4 beats in a measure. Slow or fast, doesnt matter. It’s is always 4 beats. The question is, can you make it into 8th, 12th or 16th beats? NO and YES. NO, if youre thinking of adding beats to the 4 beat already. YES, if you add within the 4 beats. Let me explain…think of it as a whole pie, you divide it on four slices (4 beats), or you can make 16 slices if you like within one whole pie.
Ok, you asked about whether a dancer (a lead) can begin a step on any foot with the beat of 1, YES! there are no rules that says you have to start with your left foot everytime. In fact there is rule that says you have to start side to side steps first when dancin bachata; you can start forrward, backward or even start with box steps right away…yet still doing 4 counts within the whole measure of the beat.
Ok how about breaking on1 as you start dancing, while on it, you executed spins, dips, urband baddass shit, you get back to basic steps – oh sit, you started on the right foot breaking on3! Arrrghhhh@! doesn’t matte, relax, as long as you are still on 4 beats, you’re just fine. You can always go back to 1 if you wish.
You can dance bachata on all timing actually…these days, for me, I tap on2 and 6 which means I break on3 – this is because i dance with beat of the Bass guitar, and my hips and steps, matches the beat of the bass instrument. For me, that is the true beat top dance with, not 1. Most people dance or break on1 to bachata because they are trained dancers. If you even notice when you got to DR – they dont dance on time, yet they dance on beat….again let me explain. They dance within the “whole pie”. They break on every numbers. Buttttttttt, if you also notice, most odminican that are “trained dancers” break on1 and maintain breaking on1 – that is the difference. WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN, it’s called structure – easier to teach, easier to explain and easier to lead and follow. This explains the counting to 8th…easier to remember and less boring than counting to 4 over and over again One of these days ill do a workshop of musicality from a musician’s point of view.
In conclusion this is what i tell my students…
– bachata is 4 beats…the 4th being a tap (if you break on1)
– i dont tell my students that left foot must start on1
– when they go behind a woman during a dance, they should go with the flow (your right foot breaking on1) and its OK.
– they dont do counting in DR yet they dance on beat (whole beat)
– your left foot is welcome to roam on 1,2, 4 or 5
Carlos Cinta:
i think everyone has their own style of teaching… i think that students are used to learning in an 8 count…. but for me its easier to teach in 4’s… otherwise you have to seperate ladies numbers and mens numbers, and if you are teaching with out a partner, then you have to turn around and figure out the numbers a different way…. so for me, the 4 count is easier… .musicians count in 4’s, dancers count in 8’s…. but its all the same in the big scheme of things….
about the right leg, left leg, i dont believe there is a “”right or wrong”… its just that for teaching purposes, guys are taught to move with their left and ladies with their right…. and for some reaosn…. if you ask one or the other to start with their other foot it becomes confusing… i dont know how because its symetrical movement ; what u do on one side you do on the other in a basic step….. so that just means they dont have a good foundation and are more robotic in their ways instead of truly understanding the timing & rhythm…
as for the guy standing behind the woman…. since the man is leading and the woman is following, i feel the man should adjust to her “timing”/ “feet” because she is REACTING to your lead… the lead knows the patterns that he is going to do in his head before he does it… so if he is doing a move that requires the lead and follow to be going in the same direction at the same time, then i think the lead should adjust to the follow. other wise the follow may get confused and the lead will have to use a forceful lead to get her to react the way he wants her to . so to avoid confusion, the one driving the car should make the adjustment. this is also why i dont count to 8…. cuz in 1-4, there is no “ladies timing” /”guys timing” …. as long as your first steps match up after the tap, then you are both correct… however if one is going to the right and the other is going to the left, then there was a boo-boo somewhere… so the lead should know where the follow is and where she is going next to make it a smoother dance….
u wil also find timing changes with in the music…. this is where understanding where the “1” is can be a blessing and a curse… because if the lead is anal about always being on the 1… they will be starting and stopping and changing feet and direction more than once in the song and it will happen quite often… so the whole dance will not be about having fun… it will be TOO structured. you will change, then change back, then change again….. thats a pain in the ass….it took me a year and a half to unlearn the 1-8 counts in my head… so only going 1-4 made life much easier for me. but thats just my experience … .that doesnt mean im right or wrong… it just means its easier for me.
Alejandro Rey:
Hello Alon,
Of course, these are all very educated responses and each instructor clearly employs their unique style within their course of instruction. As for myself, my dance background entails a very wide variety of disciplines, and my specialty is choreography and production (stage, theatre etc.). My academic background in music would include a few Latin Music History courses i took back in college in which I am very grateful to have benefit from as a student, performer and instructor. To finally answer your question, I prefer to teach and choreograph in “counts” (or sets) of 8. As a choreographer, it is better suits me personally and allows me to structure my routine very effectively ( ie 4 counts of 8 partnering, 4 counts of 8 shines, then 4 counts of 8 tricks or lifts). Of course within those counts there are various factors which I map out to add detail the routine (Musicality, percussion, lyrics, hits, accents, pauses etc). I hope this is beneficial to your inquiries. Thank you!
Christian Sola:
Alon,
I appreciate you trying to get more educated as many instructors have EGO and prefer to teach the wrong things instead of asking others or get training
Your answer could be either or, 4 count or 8 count. Music is written in 4 Bars but dance is taught in 8 for the most part.
I personally teach in 8 Counts and in that process I teach how to switch our sides by teaching something called a Skip Step. This step allows both the leader and follower to switch their direting of where they are going and yet keep the beat of Bachata. Then they can switch back to the regular motion of Leader going to the left on 1 and followers going to the right.
In Bachata, majority of Hits happen on 1 so its beneficial to dance on 1 rather than on 5. There are exceptions to this of course where some songs hit on 5 or both throughout the song.
Nestor Manuelian:
Hello Alon,
What is right and what is wrong is down to perception and opinion. This sounds like the same arguement Salsa has had for years between, Linear an Cuban styles, On1 and On2.
I think the only right or wrong is losing the main reason we do this and thats because we love the music and dancing to it.
I know some instructors teach 4 counts and some teach 8.
I know some instructors that dont teach ANY counts.
At the end of the day, we teach to dance and ultimately to enjoy what we are doing.
My suggestion, dont argue over counts, rather discuss how you can grow.
Here in Australia we have have many wonderful instructors that teach very differently AND we bring different instructors to our Bachata Festival for people to have something different again..
See when it comes to count, technique and style etc its like language. We all speak different accents, but at the end of the day, we all speak the same language. Therefore we can all understand each and have a great time.
thanks for posting the answers Alon! this is great knowledge here! 🙂
resumindo, eu posso começa com minha perna esquerda ou direita.
e isso eu posso usar tanto na bachata dominicana que é a tradicional quanto na bachata moderna certo?
Hola amigos! Me gustaría que alguien grabó un video en español que explica el momento de la bachata. dónde empieza y dónde termina. Todavía no puedo entender.
alguien gostari explican que la mujer la pierna comienza a bailar con esa pierna y el hombre comienza a bailar. Me gustaría que alguien me explique cuál es la difereça a bailar una bachata dominicano de bachata tradiciona y moderno. Gracias a la espera de respuesta. fuerte abrazo desde Brasil.
gostaria que alguém respondesse minhas perguntas acima
You are so much off timing that if the world was really flat you all will fell off the the edge, and Juan you not only off timing but off beat also not to mention you dance like you are dancing on thing glass stepping very carefull not to brake it. It is a shame that after all these years none of you have really inprove your dancing, the bachata trnd is on the way out i am noticing that is time you all look for another culture to exploit.
EDSON NOBRE lo que llaman la bachata dominicana no es mas que una mala copi de lo que es, es un nombre usado para terminos de venderla a los ignorantes del mundo, chequea algunos de mis videos que tengo de favorito en youtube para que veas lo que es verdad bailar como un dominicano, los dominicanos no tenemos reglas con que pies enpesar, tu enpiesas como te sienta comodo y si la mujer sabes bailar te sigue no inporta como comienze, ta to?
LOL Carlos, every time you comment on the website you show again your lack of knowledge and education on the topic.
This is one of the most valuable post in the Bachateros website as it has contributions from the top Bachata instructors in the world. So please, if you are going to comment on it again, make it worth it, not just a rant about how you dislike how other people dance – if not, I’ll block you from the site once and for all
EDSON, perdon la tardanza en la respuesta a tu pregunta. Bachata es un ritmo de 4/4 beats, o sea, el tiempo de la musica va 1, 2, 3, 4 y otra vez 1, 2, 3, 4
Todos los instructors estan de acuerdo que puedes comenzar en el 1 con el pie izquierdo o derecho, pero lo important es que tienes que tener consistencia. Si empezaste con el pie izquierdo en el 1, en segundo set tiene que ser con el pie derecho, el siguente set con el pie izquierdo, etc, etc
BACHATA TRADITIONAL (for lack of a better name): es el estilo mas comun de bailar bachata, se enfoca en los 3 pasos con el tap, haciendo enfasis en el movimiento de la cadera en el 4to beat. Los moviemientos son sexy y se mantiene una conecccion con la pareja
BACHATA MODERNA: Utiliza todos los conceptos de la Bachata Traditional pero anade nuevos fundamentals y pasos para poder hacer combinaciones de baile diferentes y poder llevar a tu pareja a que haga otros pasos
BACHATA DOMINICANA: el estilo autentico bailado en la Republica Dominican, se enfoca mas en el juego de los pies que en la conecion cuerpo a cuerpo con tu pareja. No hay muchas vueltas y combinaciones como la Bachata Moderna.
Chequea este articulo para mas informacion en los diferentes estilos de Bachata
http://www.bachateros.com/2009/12/bachata-styles-and-evolution/
What a great question! As a musician, I would rather count 8 than 4, only because musical phrasing occurs over 8 beats and not 4 beats, i.e. while music is counted 4/4, musical phrasing (often akin to a sentence in a 4-line verse) often occurs over 8 beats. So starting on 5 is like starting in the middle of a sentence.
Because music changes often occur on the 1 and not the 5, I teach my students to count 8 beats. This is so that they can synchronize changes in their dance with changes in the music. This also means they need to know when the music changes; e.g. when there are 4 additional beats, thus making the “1” a “5”.
But this does not mean stepping on the right leg as a leader on 1 is wrong, in situations that necessitate that (e.g. when one is behind the follower). I often switch between the 1 and 5, while knowing which is which, because whether I’m on the right or left leg, the more important thing is knowing when to introduce the changes in your dance.
For some beginners it may be easier for them to map the count to the right or left leg when they’re just starting out. But once you know the rules as a more advanced dancer, you can break the rules and let the music lead you instead.